Apparently we're becoming like bulldogs?

• 10-06-2009 5:40 AM

  Dave's Buttercup Joined on 06-19-2008 Victor Colby Born 100% Naturally 1/12/2009 Posts 105

  Apparently we're becoming like bulldogs? Reply Contact I was recently visiting my best friend and we were talking about how I saw an episode of some birth show on discovery health where the ob told her 37 1/2 weeks pregnant patient that her baby might be too big for her at 8 lbs as it was "currentl showing" on the ultrasound at the time, and that they should probably induce her around 38 1/2 weeks so the baby didn't get a chance to get too big for her to deliver. And for all the reasons I know not to have an induction without even letting your body get to the due date or even start labor on its own, my girlfriend and I were discussing this. Of course her know it all *almost* a physicians assistant boyfriend has this look on his face that clearly said ,"well it's right" let me just say He spent only 6 weeks at an obgyn's office, didn't do any exams on his own, never attended a birth, yet apparently because he read a study about this, he knows more than I do, who has spent her entire pregnancy and then some studying birth and pregnancy, probably qualifying me as an expert compared to him... Anyway he tells me the studies are showing the mre developed babies are, the bigger their heads are, but women's pelvises aren't getting any bigger so they are unable to deliver their babies. Now I know its pretty rare but it happens that a woman can't deliver the baby that she is growing, because her pelvis won't allow her to, but the trend doesn't seem to be going that way! It sounds like a great theory that some ob came up with to have control over a birth and make money off of early inductions and c-sections to me. I wouldlike to add that before someone developed a way to induce women, it was common for them to birth at 42 or even 43 weeks! Sure there was a higher incidence of death back in the day but that doesnt often occur before 42 weeks and even less often before 40 weeks. I hate that he thinks he knows more about it, and that he thinks he is right. He probably can't help it from being in school for so long that he's just programmed to believe everything he reads because someone did a study, so it MUST be right and all other opinions or material that his professors didnt show him are incorrect... The ending statement I made is that "we are NOT becoming like bulldogs in that our babies heads are too big to birth" to which he said "we are becoming that way". UGH! If your care provider told you this as a pregnant woman, how would you react? Or how would the average, non-natural birthing pregnant woman react?

• 10-06-2009 5:49 AM

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  Dave's Buttercup Joined on 06-19-2008 Victor Colby Born 100% Naturally 1/12/2009 Posts 105	Re: Apparently we're becoming like bulldogs? Reply Contact I would also like to add that I have yet to find that study via any online search engine...

• 10-06-2009 10:02 AM

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  Naudia Joined on 02-28-2008 Posts 403	Re: Apparently we're becoming like bulldogs? Reply Contact It's controversial, but this book gives some good evidence for both sides of the debate: http://community.parentingweekly.com/parenting/blogs/mommymedia/archive/2008/10/27/birth-the-surprising-history-of-how-we-are-born.aspx

• 10-06-2009 9:58 PM

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  Denise1679149 Joined on 09-05-2006 Alberta, Canada Posts 269

  Re: Apparently we're becoming like bulldogs? Reply Contact I am a little appauled by your friend's boyfriends opinion on the matter. I have a similar, but less obnoxious problem with a friend of mine who is in school to become a nurse and likes to give me child-birth and parenting advice though she has never had children or even worked with infants and basis all knowledge on what she learned in class. It amazes me that one person can read an article or take a class an all of a sudden they are more knowledgable about a subject then centuries of motherhood and birthing experience. I admire physicians and researchers who have the courage to come forth and say that even though they can't find a scientific link between two events, years of experience have old them otherwise. I can't imagine an 8lb or even a 9lb baby would have a head big enough that it couldn't fit through a mother's pelvis, that is what our bodies are naturally designed for. 8lbs is not unnaturally large.

• 10-07-2009 8:21 AM

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  Dave's Buttercup Joined on 06-19-2008 Victor Colby Born 100% Naturally 1/12/2009 Posts 105

  Re: Apparently we're becoming like bulldogs? Reply Contact Naudia: It's controversial, but this book gives some good evidence for both sides of the debate: http://community.parentingweekly.com/parenting/blogs/mommymedia/archive/2008/10/27/birth-the-surprising-history-of-how-we-are-born.aspx     Here is the blurb below the book: While “Birth” by Tina Cassidy doesn’t give you information on how your child is growing inside of you or what method of birthing will give you the best experience, it is a book you won’t be able to put down. Truly an eye-opener, “Birth” presents a factual history of childbirth all over the world, from what it might have been like to give birth in medieval or Victorian times to labor and delivery in America in the 1970s. Instances of doctors spreading infection from woman to woman and crushing babies’ skulls to extract them from their mothers will make you question doctors, hospital practices and the trust you may have initially had in them. You may even come to the conclusion that a homebirth with a midwife and a doula is the safest way to birth a child. Regardless of your opinion of the book when you’re done reading it, you’ll walk away with a wealth of knowledge about the history of childbirth and a new understanding of how the birthing process came to be where it is today. While I wouldn’t recommend “Birth” to a first-time mother-to-be in search of prenatal advice, I would recommend it to anyone who has or will eventually have children. The author’s message to trust your instincts before anyone else will stay with you long after you’ve closed the book.   I am picking up a copy of this book this afternoon.  However, I feel as though I will do what I've highlighted in bold print after reading the book, as I already feel this way on the subject.  My son's head was 14 inches circumference.  I think that's generally on the large side, and out of all the women on my birth board, not one was larger than 14 inches that I have read about from their birth stories.  I don't see a trend, that he is referring to.  And babies skulls aren't fully formed for the purpose of being born vaginally, right?  So while his head was 14 inches AFTER birth, what was it as he initially came out? Again I just feel as though this is a theory to get control over the business of birth from an obstetrician.  I think if her boyfriend had done his internship elsewhere, say with a midwife group that also does gynecological care (what he was at the practice for largely anyway) like my midwife group, he'd have a different take on the matter.

• 10-07-2009 8:57 AM

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  Naudia Joined on 02-28-2008 Posts 403

  Re: Apparently we're becoming like bulldogs? Reply Contact  It's a really great book! I found it online, here are some excerpts about evolution and the birthing process that lend facts to both sides of the arguments (depending on how you interpret it): http://books.google.com/books?id=x1iwxeP5Un8C&dq=birth+tina+cassidy&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=0uZsBZVIS1&sig=zo-Bi20u57FNUL63qhVCZYRQrNU&hl=en&ei=N7bMSvjcEouKswOlnZGPAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#v=onepage&q=too%20large&f=false

• 10-07-2009 9:53 AM

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  CrissiLovesDylan Joined on 08-24-2007 Washington Posts 723

  Re: Apparently we're becoming like bulldogs? Reply Contact My son was born with a 14 inch head circumference, so unusually large, and I did require a c-section because of his size (he was also 9 lbs, and 22 inches long, so not HUGE, but good sized). However, that being said, I don't agree with the concept that women today are more likely to have "bigger headed babies" either. For me, it's a family trait. My sister had to have a c-section 2 years ago with her large headed daughter (lol) and in fact all of my mother's deliveries had to be c-section for the same reason, and they satarted more than 25 years ago. Take into consideration also, that with the horrible diet most americans eat (even some pregnant women) that gestational diabetes is more common, leading to a handful of percentage points of bigger babies in general, and the average size for a full term newborn today, is slightly higher than it was 50 years ago. I still don't agree that we are "making bigger babies" that aren't accomidatable by our birth canals though! Even if the average newborn size has gone up a few ounces, there is no reason why the c-section rates should have skyrocketed the way they have! Our bodies (generally) are perfectly capable of delivering whatever sized baby we have grown, save for conditions like gd, or some other extenuating circumstances (like mine). Doctors these days are just getting lazier and lazer, and instead of letting women labor for a completely reasonable amount of time, they induce and progress labor with drugs, and perform c-sections at the drop of a hat.

• 10-07-2009 11:20 AM

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  BoldBeautifulBirth Joined on 11-08-2005 Puget Sound Area, WA Posts 625

  Re: Apparently we're becoming like bulldogs? Reply Contact A 14" head is about average! ("The average length of a newborn is 20 inches (50 centimeters), with a range of 18 to 22 inches. The average head circumference (the distance around the head) is 14 inches (35 centimeters)." http://health.howstuffworks.com/understanding-newborn-characteristics-and-development-ga4.htm, "Average newborn (full-term), Weight: 7 pounds, 5 ounces (normal range: 6 to 10 pounds), Length: 20 inches (50 cm) (normal range: 18 1/2 to 21 1/2 inches), Head circumference: 13.8 inches (35 cm) (normal range: 33 to 37 cm)" http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/pa/pa_normalgr_hhg.htm, "Clarke found that the males had an average head circumference of 13.9 in. (35.3 cm) and the females 13.6 in. (34.5 cm). Perhaps, the present-day practitioner will be surprised to learn that Clarke's measurements of the average head circumference at birth are almost exactly the same as those obtained more than a century and a half later" http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/39/6/883)...   My sons both had 14.5" heads, and my sister's son was 15.5" - all were birthed vaginnally. Both my sons were born without a tear or instrument assists. My last son was 8 lbs 12 oz - not small, but I wouldn't consider him 'big' either. I think your sister's boyfriend is full of it. Women are more than capable of birthing large babies - pygmy woman in Africa... "these women have a height of four feet, on average. The average weight of their infants is eight pounds! In relative terms, this is like a woman five feet six giving birth to a fourteen-pound baby. " (http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/pelvis.asp) Bulldogs were selectively bred, and inbred, for years SOLEY to produce pups with large heads - an unnatural evolution of their breed. We ARE NOT BULLDOGS!

• 10-08-2009 6:21 AM

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  Dave's Buttercup Joined on 06-19-2008 Victor Colby Born 100% Naturally 1/12/2009 Posts 105

  Re: Apparently we're becoming like bulldogs? Reply Contact This is my favorite quote from your last selection: "Just imagine if the doctor said honestly, 'Well, Joe, this was one of those times when we jumped the gun—there was actually not a thing wrong with either your baby or your wife. I'm sorry she'll have a six week recovery to go through for nothing.' We do know that at least 15 percent of cesareans are unnecessary but the parents are never told. There is a conspiracy among hospital staff to keep this information from families for obvious reasons." and another from one of the author's other pelvis stories: "I asked her to write to the surgeon who had made the remark that she couldn't birth a baby over two pounds and let him know that this unscientific, unkind remark had caused her much unneeded worry." The second quote makes me feel like that is how a lot of women come to terms with a second c-section, with the surgeon having told her words similar to this.  But the bottom line is, that the weight doesn't seem to be the issue at hand, it's the head circumference; which I refuse to believe that the heads are becoming bigger and bigger as we advance in health care, because like pp states, we aren't bred for that.  My baby came out so easily with his average-sized canteloupe, and I may have the advantage of the "best pelvis shape" to do it, that I feel like I could, easily handle a larger head.  But what makes a head larger?  Brain size.  Does GD make your baby's brain larger?  No. In all of my readings, the bottom line seems to be that obstetricians are the ones who make the call in the end after so many hours of pushing.  I know that there are women who physically can't push out a head (my best friend, yes the one who's boyfriend I am referring to, has a cousin in Ohio who's midwife allowed her to be at home for nearly 3 days before they finally said "I think it's time you need a c-section" because she just couldn't push the baby out.  Her water had been broken for well over 24 hours, also) but I feel like it is a true rarity; if mothers are given the chance without so many interventions, without 15 strangers coming in and out of her hospital room, with the right kind of support behind her, and without premature rupture of the membranes, you'd likely find less instances of c-sections due to "failure to progress."  Care providers with the attitude like my friend's boyfriend seemingly "jump the gun" on what is deemed necessary, and having a potentially larger head (as viewed on an ultrasound screening) just seems like another excuse, and just listening to his words make me cringe.  He is not the type of care provider I would want to help me through my pregnancy or labor and delivery, for fear that my next potentially large child might wind up in a c-section for all the wrong reasons, and have my baby be smaller than my first vaginally delivered child.

• 10-08-2009 9:16 AM

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  SandraRh Joined on 10-27-2004 Hot Springs, AR Posts 60	Re: Apparently we're becoming like bulldogs? Reply Contact  yeah I don't think so at all...LOL...for one thing baby's heads have overlapping plates that squeeze through the birth canal with no problem.  Anyways my three kids were 6 lbs 14 oz, 8 lbs 2 oz and 8 lbs 11 oz. Their heads all ranged from 14.25 inches to 14.75 inches.  Didn't have any issues with any of them.

• 10-08-2009 11:57 AM

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  scarlet_willow Joined on 12-14-2007 James 23 July '08, Henry 26 Oct '09 Posts 984

  Re: Apparently we're becoming like bulldogs? Reply Contact Dave's Buttercup: The ending statement I made is that "we are NOT becoming like bulldogs in that our babies heads are too big to birth" to which he said "we are becoming that way". UGH! If your care provider told you this as a pregnant woman, how would you react? Or how would the average, non-natural birthing pregnant woman react? LOL! I can't believe he said that!  Larger babies have cone heads for a reason!  My first birth was with an epidural and I am really disgusted by how so many women are pressured into having early inductions (or c-sections) because an u/s says the baby may be on the big side.  (U/S which are NOT at all reliable in predicting weight)  NOW- if the baby really were huge, like 10 lb or more I can see wanting to take some extra precautions just to be on the safe side.  But 8-9lb..... no.  My son was 8 lb and I have seen other small framed women having 9 & even 10 pounders.  It's not easy, but it is possible to have a safe vaginal birth with a larger baby.  I feel lucky that my Dr. isn't overly concerned in this area.  I have been measuring ahead since 25 weeks and she keeps estimating he will be 8 lb or more, but we both know that I can do it.  Even if he comes out bigger than that I know I can handle it!

• 10-08-2009 3:18 PM

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  NoLongerDesolate Joined on 02-23-2005 North LA Posts 527

  Re: Apparently we're becoming like bulldogs? Reply Contact Maybe he is right and heads are getting bigger. MAYBE. And, yes, I believe that there are very RARE cases that a woman's pelvis is too small. But I highly doubt big heads are just becoming this epidemic. For one thing, the body produces relaxin so that the pelvis will stretch and accomodate a head (as well as the babies head being able to change shape to fit). What I believe is happening is that so many women are being induced that their bodies haven't had the time to relax enough to accomodate the head. On top of that, pit can make u contract harder and faster than maybe u would have on your own with regular ctx. Again, not giving the body enough time to stretch.

• 10-08-2009 6:04 PM

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  Dave's Buttercup Joined on 06-19-2008 Victor Colby Born 100% Naturally 1/12/2009 Posts 105

  Re: Apparently we're becoming like bulldogs? Reply Contact scarlet_willow: I feel lucky that my Dr. isn't overly concerned in this area.  I have been measuring ahead since 25 weeks and she keeps estimating he will be 8 lb or more, but we both know that I can do it.  Even if he comes out bigger than that I know I can handle it!    Hey, I noticed your due date is creeping up!!  Congratulations and many many wishes for a happy, healthy, and safe delivery!    I can't wait to read your birth story!

• 10-09-2009 3:02 PM

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  Anne100678 Joined on 12-07-2004 MN Posts 202

  Re: Apparently we're becoming like bulldogs? Reply Contact It makes sense if you just take a very outside and naive look at birth.... So many c-sections and inductions must be done for a good reason right? To save women from those giant headed babies! But once you look at the fact that the rest of the world doesn't seem to have the same problem it makes less sense. Then when you look at the malpractice scares, docs that don't want to be called in late at night, women that think that having babies is something you can schedule for convenience, and hospitals that appreciate c-section revenue, it really doesn't make sense! I agree it is ridiculous. I knew a lady that had a baby too big for her. The baby was over 9 lbs and she was a tiny statured 4 ft 8. She didn't have gestational diabetes, but it makes you wonder if she passed the glucose test but developed it after or something. Other than that the big baby thing is a joke. Fat squishes, skulls squish, and pelvic ligaments stretch..... what a dork he must be! lol, to compare us to an animal that has been so selectively bred to the point of deformity......

• 10-12-2009 8:45 AM

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  scarlet_willow Joined on 12-14-2007 James 23 July '08, Henry 26 Oct '09 Posts 984	Re: Apparently we're becoming like bulldogs? Reply Contact Dave's Buttercup: Hey, I noticed your due date is creeping up!!  Congratulations and many many wishes for a happy, healthy, and safe delivery!    I can't wait to read your birth story!  Aww thanks that's so sweet!  I'm starting to get so nervous, I hope I can be brave enough to do it all natural this time!